Skyport Easter Sunday

[SA]

We had 18 pilots packed into the Eagle van on Easter Sunday. We headed up the hill just after 9:30am, and found very light SW cycles on launch. After the flight briefing with a handful of visiting pilots who had come to town for some thermaling time we got our first pilot in the air. The out of towner (wind technician) Doug didn’t find much at launch, but did find it working well over the Monastery. He had a nice climb, and after watching his climb out the pace a launch picked up and pilots started hucking.

There was nice lift all day over the Monastery. Pilots were climbing to 3000 feet. Big A Bob Anderson zoomed around a bit getting some love over at the Holy Hills after getting up on the usual route. The visiting pilots (Matt, Spencer, Doug, & John) who were here to thermal all got some good airtime. Toni got up here just in time form LA to have some fun and get some thermal action as well. All the usual suspects were at launch getting airtime on what turned out to be a beautiful Skyport Sunday. I met Chris who was a recently graduated P2 from Fly Above All who wanted in on the fun. He hadn’t done a high flight yet, but was licking his chops after seeing everybody climbing out. He did great and got to soar on his first mountain high flight. Great job Chris!

We ended up doing three rounds from the Skyport on Sunday, and managed to have a pretty full van on every trip up the hill. We are headed to the Alternator today with an 11:30am meet time. The lapse rate looks good up high we just need some heating and to have it clock around to a more southerly direction.

[Bo Criss]

"I met Chris who was a recently graduated P2 from Fly Above All who wanted in on the fun. He hadn’t done a high flight yet, but was licking his chops after seeing everybody climbing out. He did great and got to soar on his first mountain high flight."

I thought P2s were supposed to get a high flight before earning their rating? I'd hate to think that graduating P2s just wonder up the mountain without a mountain experience with their own instructor/s. Doesn't sound like a good program to me. On top of that, is Skyport the best first mountain experience for a paragliding pilot?

Love me, Hate me,

Bo

[Doug G]

I too was a bit surprised to hear about this, as I’m the instructor who had been coordinating with Chris for several weeks for his first high flight.

Two weeks ago, Chris and I completed the site intros and briefings for his first high flight from Alternator, but it was too windy to fly. Last weekend, we again tried, and again got shutdown by weather. Chris and I spoke this past Friday evening regarding weather conditions and possibly another attempt, but due to weather predictions and my involvement in this weekend’s Thermal Clinic, we agreed next weekend might be better.

While I also disagree with Skyport as a first high flight location, I am very happy to hear that Chris made a safe flight! Nice job Chris!

I thank Rob for kindly offering his help to all members of our flying community, and I look forward to helping Chris with his first Alternator flight very soon.

Doug

[SA]

“No good deed goes unpunished.” ~ Clare Booth Luce (1903 - 1987)

There is no need to thank me Doug. You would likely have helped the guy if you were comfortable with the pilot’s attitude, the conditions, and the launch. We are lucky to live in Free Flying Paradise, and have such a solid community bond here between pilots and the different schools.

Ultimately it was my choice to get Chris off Skyport Sunday under my guidance. I was confident we could get him the flight he has been working towards, and we both succeeded. We don’t live in a vacuum, and we need to take flying opportunities when presented with good conditions. We hadn’t flown the mountains here for weeks, and I’m unwilling to let these moments slip away. Chris deserved a high flight and he got it. Good for him.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding Skyport for first high flights. It has been working for me as an instructor nicely since 1997. There haven’t been any helicopter rescues or epic hike out’s from the Skyport, and we can’t say the same for the Alternator. It may take more nerve than some have to get students launched from Skyport, but try not to judge my decision to use it as a great spot for first high flights in the right conditions.

From the reply above -“I thought P2s were supposed to get a high flight before earning their rating?”

You thought wrong. Novice Pilots are NOT required to get a “High Flight” before earning their P2 rating. Schools are welcome to add as much as they want to their own programs to qualify their students to be complete Novice Pilots before being certified. I think part of the confusion here may be due to the fact that 360 turns used to be a requirement for the P2 Certification which happens rarely at our training hill. They have now made 360 turns a special skill instead of a requirement for the Novice Rating.

Here is an update to USHPA’s SOP’s regarding this topic which was voted in almost a year ago at the Spring 2008 USHPA BOD Meeting. http://www.ushpa.aero/news.asp?id=119

Here is link to USHPA’s SOP’s for Novice pilots. You can see there is no mention of a “High Flight” requirement anywhere. http://www.ushpa.aero/documents/sop/sop-12-02.pdf

Here is another program you may not know about - http://www.ushpa.aero/documents/info_mentor_tips.pdf

We flew the Alternator today and got to 4500. I’ll see if I can get Kabir to write that up in another post since he was on top all day. “Let’s Go Flying” ~ right?

[Chris G]

It might be wise, especially in such a small community, to not interfere with another programs recently graduated students who may still be under instruction. It's too easy to be seen as an attempt to convert students to one school or another. Kinda goes along with actively marketing gear to another schools recently graduated student. That's just going to breed drama in a relatively drama-free community. I was under the impression that there's a general understanding between instructors to keep that way. Besides, I like coming home to minimal drama.

As for Skyport, it's definitely a tougher launch, longer glide, with more decisions that need to be made on the way out. There are certain turn points that need to be hit in order to make it to the LZ safely, and the bailouts are small with risks in East or West winds and a high penalty for overshooting. The primary LZ is also small often with some turbulence and obstacles. I've lost track of the number of people that have ended up in the bottom of rattlesnake canyon so while there may have been fewer helicopter extractions at Skyport, there have still been a significant number of injuries, epic stories, and S&R extractions. There may be ways to justify it on certain days with certain students, but there are also some serious drawbacks so it's by no means perfect. It could be said that if a launch takes "nerve" it's probably not that great for a first high flight.

I don't think anyone is judging, I think they're just calling it like they see it. If you're truly confident that Skyport is better, there's no reason to have to explain it to the rest of us and the discussion can end here.

[Bo Criss]

Thanks for all the clarifications fellow instructors!

I know there are times when students wait months for the appropriate weather to fly the mountains. It's hard not to sign a student off when they've maxed out their learning curve at the Training Hill and the mountain weather isn't cooperating. My opinion is, if they are going to be flying local, just wait till they get a thorough high flight before signing their card.

I'm going to agree with Chris on one point for sure, It may be difficult for an instructor from another school to really judge what is appropriate for a new pilot. One instructor helped one of my previous graduates launch Skyport about a year ago. This particular pilot hadn't flown/kited/hooked into a harness in over a year and a half and was having a hard time remembering which lines/risers to pull to inflate the wing on launch. This should have been a huge clue that a mountain flight was asking for trouble! After launching he ended up suffering a cascade of events resulting in a spiral all the way to a tree, which sounded like it saved the pilot's life. In this particular situation it may not have been appropriate to "help" this pilot take flight. It just adds another level of risk to the equation. It seems like the guidance of your personal instructor is going to be the safest way to start/renew your mountain experience.

The local flying community also benefits when P2/H2 graduates have a strong introduction to our precious flying sites. Adding risk to the mountain flying scene seems unproductive. MM's situation wasn't linked to anything "unsafe", but the result of less flying privileges at that site, has a real sting that we feel everyday and come June Gloom, we'll feel a lot more. All we need (DON'T NEED) is someone landing on the round house property to get the swarm of bees going.

"They" may have taken out the 360 degree turns as a requirement, but maybe "they" shouldn't have. It can be surprising to new pilots how much altitude they lose in a circle. It seems like a lot of new P2s and out of towners have a hard time judging the appropriate glide to a safe lz. There have already been a number of tree/canyon landings this year. How can we help reduce the frequency of land outs?

It would be interesting to hear from all the local instructors on what they think about including "high flights" and "360s" as part of the required curriculum. I think it has big advantages to our site preservation.

Am I too safety conscious? I know Gary would think so!

Bo

[Parma Chris]

"It might be wise, especially in such a small community, to not interfere with another programs recently graduated students who may still be under instruction"

I have to disagree with this. I think it is better to, as you say "Interfere" than watch a fresh p-2 launch with NO guidance. (especially when the guidance is standing there AND it comes from one of our own most experienced Local mountain guides)

Personally have had to "interfere" with fresh P-2's out at more mesa. They come out BIG EYES READY TO FLY and are legally able to launch More Mesa but they HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING since they have had No instruction on a ridge.
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"It's too easy to be seen as an attempt to convert students to one school or another".

I really Doubt that was the motive here......Think maybe it was about getting someone a great SAFE flight?
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"Kinda goes along with actively marketing gear to another schools recently graduated student. That's just going to breed drama in a relatively drama-free community"

Comments like this breed Drama... and me saying so breeds more drama (sorry) but i just felt compelled to post
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"There may be ways to justify it on certain days with certain students, but there are also some serious drawbacks so it's by no means perfect. It could be said that if a launch takes "nerve" it's probably not that great for a first high flight.
I don't think anyone is judging, I think they're just calling it like they see it. If you're truly confident that Skyport is better, there's no reason to have to explain it to the rest of us and the discussion can end here."

Seems to me this is pretty judgmental thing to say, but this same judgmental statement states,(There may be ways to justify it on certain days with certain students) If you think this is a "justification" RATHER than a VERY educated and experienced decision by one of our most experienced and educated instructors .. then I have to disagree with you.

[SA]

Chris~

Your the only one creating drama here. Two instructors from the other program you mention let me know they are thankful and support my actions. You seem to be quite out of touch with the flying community you call home. Save your paranoid student conversion and gear lecture for a post that deserves it. Nobody said Skyport was perfect, and better depends on the day. Your Skyport banter is amusing. I only use the word “nerve” because you and a few others seem nervous about launching new students there. Meanwhile, the rest of us are enjoying everything it offers. Your calling it how you see it, but the glass is half full not half empty.

Bo~

“I'm going to agree with Chris on one point for sure, It may be difficult for an instructor from another school to really judge what is appropriate for a new pilot.”

Chris never spoke to this point! He got off on some tangent about stealing students and selling gear.

Sounds like your previous graduate didn’t understand he should get out to the training hill and knock the rust off if he hadn’t been out in a while. Did his program fail him here?

How and why do you drag MM into this? Nobody did anything out of line there to create our current situation at MM. You guys are good at getting off point.

“They” are the USHPA Board of Directors. Sorry I thought you would have picked up on that. Come join us at the Bi-annual meetings, and make a difference by letting your voice be heard. I will be happy to propose any written suggestion you supply to the board as your Regional Director.

[Parma Chris]

"How and why do you drag MM into this? Nobody did anything out of line there to create our current situation at MM. You guys are good at getting off point."

Rob, I said that because it is the same thing, should i stand by and do and say nothing and just watch a brand new guy launch that has NO ridge soaring experience? Or should I do the best i can to educate someone that is brand new and help them get a Fun SAFE flight.

FYI, My post had nothing to do with the current situation out a mm

[SA]

Parma my MM comment was not directed at you. You comments regarding MM are right on point with what this discussion is about. The same cannot be said for the other reply referencing MM.

[wingnut]

Whoa ... can't say much about "should-a," and probably shouldn't say anything considering ... but I was there and think that Chris, Doug, and Bo would-a been pleased at what they saw and heard.

Thoughtful site intros ... help on launching ... calling cycles ... catching blown launches ... climbing up and down the slope for lay-outs ... great coaching on and off radio ... polite waiting for line-ups ... confidence building comments ... serious learning going on ... just a whole lot of calm, professional, guidance from Rob and Kevin. It was right and good, really ... a pleasure to watch.

One of the reasons I like to fly around here is the community of pilots ... and instructors ... who treat most all students like one of theirs even if they are from other schools. If P2 Chris and conditions weren't right then it wouldn't have happened, for sure. And like I said before ... had you guys been there ... you'd be pleased one of your students was so well schooled (but maybe not have Chris' perma-grin).

[Bo Criss]

Rob, you run an excellent school and it's my understanding that you include a mountain intro/flight/or tandem flight in your P2 program. Everyone benefits when this happens!

Chris G had writtten "It might be wise, especially in such a small community, to not interfere with another programs recently graduated students who may still be under instruction." This was what I was agreeing with, sorry if you thought I twisted it.

I only mentioned MM because of our recent loss of flying privileges there. Unfortunately there are many opportunities to lose any site by any pilot. Newbies and out-of-towners are our greatest challenge here. Let's just hope we don't lose Skyport!

What is your school's stance on including a mountain flight and 360s in your P2 program?

[Morgan]

Wow!!!! I can't wait to tell Chris about all the publicity he got for his first high flight. I have to say it was I who brought him up to Skyport. But I did it with the full knowledge that Rob would be there and that he would launch him if he felt comfortable. Let's face it, once you get that p2 rating you're kind of left to figure it out on your own. At least that's the way I felt.

I knew Chris had been trying for a high flight for a couple of weeks and had gotten shut down and that Doug was busy with his thermal clinic. But I took Chris to Bates on Saturday and he had some excellent launches and landings. I asked Chris if he wanted to check it out and see if Rob would launch him from Skyport and he said "oh yeah, definately!"

I have told him a lot about all of you guys that I've met up on the hill and how grateful I am that you all have made me feel so welcome...so part of your family. If it weren't for Kevin and Rob and Marge and Dave and Andy and Art....I would probably still be flying the training hill most of the time.

When I got my p2 I also got shut down the first few times at Alternator, but one of those times Kevin was going to take his people to More Mesa to teach some ridge soaring. I asked him if I might tag along as I was itching to fly somewhere else besides the training hill and the instructors that were going to see to my first mountain flight were calling it quits for the day. I think it was Memorial day. Marge took some awesome photos that day. So Kevin's like "sure dude, do you have a radio?"

Since then, almost all of my most memorable flying experiences have come from my association with Rob and Kevin. From the maneuvers clinic to the my first incredible cross...Santa Barbara flight I had with Bader a few weeks ago.

All this is to say that I have complete trust and confidence in you Rob. So, if you were willing to launch my friend, Chris, I know he couldn't have been in better hands or with a better group of people. And I mean all of you. And, Bo, if you had been there I know you would have been looking out too. I hope Chris is welcomed into the fold as I have been and has the blessing to share this sport with some of the best people I have met anywhere.

From what I have seen of Chris, he listens to his instructor and does not hesitate to input the direction he is given instantly and I know how important that is to a teacher so I knew he would do fine.

And he did. Really smooth launch and he only came up about a hundred yards short at Parma.

Ok, I'm done...next.

[Morgan]

Ok, one more thing. Wingnut...everything you said is right on. I mean about the kind of teaching that is ALWAYS going on when the Eagle team is up there. All the bases are covered.

I have one other thought after reading the rest of the posts. Wow, kind of gnarly, you guys really go at it. Such strong emotions...Anyway, the thing I was going to say is that someone mentioned how Skyport has so many more decisions to make and stuff like that. But what I found on my first flight at Alternator...thank you DOUG, who was not officially associated with either the light or dark side at that point, is that as soon as you turn the corner you're out of radio range and the rest of the flight you're just going "holy shit I'm all alone now. Hope I don't have a major collapse or something." And at Skyport you are on radio, and in sight of the instructor the entire flight. Yeah, it's a little bit gnarlier, but I for one would rather have that voice in my ear for my first high flight. Just my observation. Don't get pissed anybody.

[Chris G]

I'm surprised that there's such a strong reaction to my post. Is there, or is there not a general agreement between instructors (locally and around the world) to not become commercially involved with each others students out of mutual respect? Wouldn't the best course of action in that situation be to ask students who their instructor is, and let them know that it would be appropriate to continue their education with that particular instructor who will know better what that particular student needs? The only time I could conceive of it being appropriate to step in is if the student is determined to launch, instructed or not, or if their instructor is dangerously negligent, which certainly isn't the case here. There's a time when friendly pointers from other instructors are great, and we all do it, but I wouldn't walk up to another schools students and start directing them on launch procedures at a training hill and I would expect that to carry over to the mountains as well, especially for a new P2.

It's great that it was all about getting the student a safe flight, but like I said, it would be too easy for other instructors to misinterpret it as something else and I think Rob would feel the same if the tables were turned.