Mid air collisions and windy conditions

[Bo Criss]

Hey,

Just wanted to chime in on two things – mid air collisions and windy conditions.

This is the second mid air between a hang pilot and paraglider pilot in the last 5 years that I know about here in Santa Barbara. Both times all the pilots escaped just fine, a big relief. Both times involved a less experienced paraglider pilot and a seasoned hang glider pilot. Both times the hang glider pilot hit the paraglider pilot from behind. Both times the paraglider pilot was initially above the hang glider pilot.

Here are some ideas about avoiding this. Hang gliders fly at a much faster speed, so thermalling with a hang pilot for a paraglider pilot is stepping up the level of difficulty dramatically. If you are not an experienced thermal pilot (50 thermal flights over an hour/flight), I would avoid mixing it up with another type of aircraft like a hang pilot or a tandem paraglider pilot, or a sailplane.

Practice thermalling with your instructor first. Then move up to one or two experienced paragliding pilots. Eventually thermalling with others will be fun and safe. One really good idea is to wear a streamer if you are out of practice or new to thermalling. Taking a thermal clinic with your instructor is an excellent way to get the focused attention a low time P2 or P3 pilot needs to grow smoothly and safely in this sport. If it's a windy or bumpy day in the sky, give yourself more distance from your fellow airmen.

The right of way rules clearly give the lower pilot pilot the right of way. We need to be exceedingly aware of pilots below us, especially if they are slower or faster than us.

The other issue that I noticed on Sunday was the increasing wind and how it made it hard to land at the LZ in Parma. St. Mary's is a last resort LZ, avoid landing there if possible, especially with a strong west wind. I know Chad broke his back many years ago because of the rotor on these high wind days. Thinking St. Mary's is a good alternative to Parma is dangerous thinking.

As the calls came on the radio about increased wind and the inability to get a good glide to Parma came in, I decided to try to get as high as possible. It required patience as I started to get low on the Thermal Factory 2-3 times waiting for the next thermal. When I finally got a decent one that put me just above the the immediate hill at the road cut, I decided to use the mountains to block the wind so I could get further up wind before heading out. So before crossing the power lines, I headed towards the Holy Hills running parallel with the mountain range. In this protected air, I was easily able to penetrate upwind. If I had experienced a strong sink rate at any point, I would have turned left, easily making St. Mary's or Parma. About half way across the canyon, I hadn't sank much at all. I then turned left and headed straight out and believe I was riding a bit of a wave/convergence that gave me an excellent sink rate. I think if I had gone to the Antenna Farm, I would have been in that rushing river of air and having a heck of a time penetrating to Parma.

I think this is a good option to try if you find that people are chattering about increasing winds after you've already launched. Be patient and get high if the thermals are working.

I personally don't like flying in high winds around mountain terrain. It puts more fear than fun into my wimpy resolve. Now go up to Chelan and get on the flats and you can give me a lot of wind, I'll frisbee out the miles with a smile on my face. It's just that mechanical turbulence we get from the mountains, I'm not a big fan.

Have fun out there,

Bo

[DBLD]

Bo
You made some really good points about both topics! I have been thermalling with other pilots since '94 (started flying '93). In that time I have never gotten comfortable being wingtip to wingtip with another pilot, but sometimes that is the most efficient way to thermal (especially in comps). Since taking up paragliding I am even more cautious especially with hang gliders because I am aware of the speed difference and the sink rate difference.

Keep posting the words of experience

DD

[Lew Riffle]

Bo to my recollection Chad compressed his spine on such a west day but it was at Parma impacting across the canyon on the road ridge when he did not make the LZ in uppers. Not to say much for St. Mary's in a west scrub if you can get there in such conditions. West wind makes you wise one way or the other! LEW

[Parma Chris]

Bo,
I saw your glide out that day from Skyport and I remember saying.. WOW look at the glide Bo is getting against the strong west. Never the less I decided not to fly that Day.

Anyway, Couple questions. I have heard you say on the radio: Don't land at St Marys or I would recommend NOT landing at St Mary's because its so west and and St Mary is Turby. My question is, when we are already in th air and the strong west comes... seems St Mary is about our only option because we wont make it to Parma OR is it? I would like to hear some thoughts on when we do find ourselves in the air approaching the roundhouse spine and the west gets strong.. wouldn't the fire road across from Parma be the call? Seems the west would take you there kinda easy?

Comments/thougths please

[Lew Riffle]

Chris that is the place that Chad had his mishap way back when. Think about the rotor from the ridge at Parma and El Ceilto tumbling across the canyon downwind it can be a shit pit like only a hangy knows when they have to go into lowers for not paying attention to how strong the west was. After the lip the flow is not to laminar (when it's strong west) and the turbulence continues way downwind to the next ridge at old Prama Road. LEW

[faoro]

Hey, Chris, in response to where to land in strong west wind, don't forget Westmont College. Although it should never be a primary LZ (they'd prefer we not land there), its three large fields are extremely easy targets and are reachable on a glide from Skyport in any west wind. I remember a day when I was a rookie parked 1000 feet above the eastern edge of Westmont's soccer field in a 15-17 mph west wind. I was amazed (rookie mistake) that I descended straight down and couldn't reach the field - even with speed bar. The good thing about the area is that there are more options eastward. I simply did a quick turn and landed in another small field (someone's property) about one or two hundred yards east of the soccer field.

[glenny]

yup... in the strong west...i too have landed at westmont.... also on the spine abefore lowers a time or two.... both are cleaner than parma itself for rotor... westmont is actually a pretty easy glide if you have any altitude at all... the best choice is to not fly the skyport on such a day at all... then you wont have to choose which nasty rotor you would like to land in...

glenny

[Parma Chris]

Thanks Ron,

Glenny, I was not talking about lowers, i was asking about the fire road on the other side of the canyon. The road they used to land as a bail out from the rock.

[mpaul]

I went west that day to avoid the gaggle and was the first to land a St. Marys. I was on glide to parma, just past the monastery, when that west wind hit I started sinking like a ton of bricks. I had to use speed bar to get over the monastery ridge - followed by a scary turbulent landing. I watched 5 more people make sketchy landings while I was packing up. One guy took a big frontal collapse thirty feet above the ground but pulled out of it just in time. His new wing came down in a cactus. Turns out he was the one who had the brush with the hangglider. An eventful day for him. All of them would have had enough altitude to make parma on a normal day.
Lesson learned about St. Marys in the west wind. People coming off the roundhouse ridge low ran out of options quick, but landing on some newly burned hill might be a better call in the future.

For future weather analysis - Even though the mountain winds were calm at 10, the signs of that wind were in the forecast. At about 9:30AM the west channel buoy was reading wind at 15kt from the west, the east channel buoy was reading 0kt, and NOAA had issued a wind advisory. That explains how strong and fast the wind came up.

Mike Paul

[Ramey]

FYI - I remember 3 mid air collisions between HG and PG pilots:

1) Craig and a rookie PG pilot - 5+ years ago. It was over West Bowl and Craig climbed right into him - never saw him.
2) JR and a (Brazilian) guy flying a tandem PG from Sky port. The PG was figure eighting between launch and flores flats. When he as out of sight, JR launched and started to circle at launch. Also the tandem got whacked from behind and landed in to bushes.
3) This incident would make 3

This doesn't include an extremely close encounter I had with Dean over the antenna farm - I think I came within about 3 feet of him. I had climbed to the low cloud base and was just getting wispy and then I saw him. It was very odd as it seemed like I was moving sideways and that my wing tip was heading right toward the front of him. It looked like it was going to go through his lines. I banked over very, very hard and flew to the beach.

Aside from the difference in speed, there is another problem. I don't feel confident that I know what a PG pilot is going to do. If I get into a thermal with an HG pilot we're going to keep going the same direction. Aside from issues of right of way, we will usually lose altitude if we change the direction of our circle so no one is going to switch.

It seems that some PGs - probably less experience ones, feal comfortable with the idea that they can wander all of the map. This makes me very nervous. Also, it might look like we can turn on a dime, but the fact is it takes some time and we will cut a huge swath of air before the turn is finished. If this path crosses some PG lines, there will be hell to pay. Finally, remember that if you look down and see a HG, he can't see you and doesn't know your there. If you drop in behind him, you both might be surprised when he comes around - it won't be long, and whacks you on the back of head.

I would like to see some more emphasis on teaching right of way rules. Perhaps we might have "Test" at the club meeting with discussion afterwards.

In spite of what I've said here, things seem to have improved - I'm not as nervous about this as I used to be. And it could be a lot worse. A couple of years ago I went to torry pines for some extra landing training. Launching was OK, Landing was OK, but flying in very close quarters with PG was very nerve wracking to me. I think the worst thing was that it didn't seem to bother them at all. On all my flights I just went up long enough to get another landing in. Oh and don't forget the RC planes. Oh and you have to rent a whistle. I'm wasn't sure what it was for so I just blew it all the time to calm the nerves.

Robert Ramey

[pengoquin]

I fully agree that knowing and understanding the right-of-way rules is paramount. But when it comes down to it, until I have flown with someone for awhile, anyone new puts me on edge and when you throw in the diversity in performance between a PG and HG, well that really can mix things up. Once I've had the time to become familiar with the the other pilot, then working a thermal together can be fantastic. This may only take a couple of seconds, as I'm looking for good eye contact, proper speed control, smooth transition into the circle as we match each other's speed and bank angle. If I don't like the way the other guy is flying I'll leave.

If there is a strong head wind, then that can really make things tough when PGs and HGs are trying to work the same circles. The performance difference between PG and HG appeared to be a real problem in the light lift and very strong West wind of the day. The thermals were very dis-organized and trying to match speed in the turns was really tough. I saw one HG pilot really push out hard to avoid a rear ending a suddenly slowing PG (good job who ever it was). Not the best conditions.

As far as right-of-way, one thing that really ticks me off is the guy above who just won't get of the way, "The Pilot below has the right-of-way." If someone is climbing up, get out of the way and don't wait until you're standing on his wing to do it. Besides, you have probably topped out and its time to move it.

And always remember the number one rule of aviation, "See and Avoid".

[gary begley]

All really good points and things to always keep in consideration when flying. However this discussion could go on forever if blaming others and scapegoating is at the heart of it. What it really comes down to is being responsible for self and your personal ability to self analyze your skill for the task at hand. What if the pilot thinks he has the skill or ability to fly with other pilots or gliders but he really doesn't. Or what if the instructor has a stroke of humanness and doesn't give the pilot accurate information (which has been witnessed multiple times). Once again, the bottom line is possessing the ablility to self analyze where you are as a pilot, sharing information with others, and being honest with one's ability for the day's flight: realizing that your choices not only influence you, but others. Even with all of this awareness, mistakes will still occur and hopefully you or I will not be the fool that others will be analyzing with couldas, shouldas, wouldas; "What the hell were they thinking?"

Gary Begley
www.garybegleysports.com

[Tony de Groot]

Some other thoughts for the newer pilot is that HG's (as well as PG's) vary widely in their performance and this affects how they can perform in the air. A clue to a hang gliders performance is the shape and amount of undersurface material on the wing as well as having a king post or not(at the top of this page is a hang glider, mine, that has a king post). If they have no king post, no upper rigging and have a full amount of undersurface dacron or mylar material they are a high performance hang glider. These have the best sink rate, fly the fastest and are generally the most experienced pilots. They also tend to race eachother and don't usually like to just hang out so giving them some space helps them get up and they usually move along rather quickly.
If they have upper rigging, a king post and full undersurface material they are an intermediate glider(the glider I'm flying at the top of the page is an intermediate hang glider). Unless it's a good day these gliders usually stay close to home and try to get to the top of the stack and maybe just cruise to R&R and back to thermal factory.
If you see a glider with a king post and upper rigging and you can see his cross bar from underneath as there is no double surface that's me. Stay away. Just kidding. This is an entry level glider and they have the same characteristics as an entry level paraglider. They fly slow and have a similar glide. They are also usually beginner pilots.
The way I check out paragliders is the shape of the wing and the amount of aeroness in the paraglider's harness. Comp pilots have a much pointier and more horizontal shape of harness. My single surface hang glider matches speeds pretty well with an entry to mid level paraglider, I am just a touch faster. There are many really good paraglider pilots who I thermal with all the time and you can tell right away that they know how to fly with a hang glider pilot.
Besides observing what kind of pilot and wing you are thermaling with there are two things which really help in getting along with a HG pilot. The first thing is to generally follow a hang glider pilot since his speed is faster it gives the hang glider maneuvering room. A paraglider can do this by staying in a smaller radius turn. A scary thing for a hang glider is to have a paraglider turn in front of him and apply brake as we'll run right into him. The second thing is to maintain the same turn in a thermal. If you feel the thermal moving move your circle gently in that direction. These few tips should help a lot. One more note is that when a hang glider flies with a sail plane then the HG pilot has to do the same thing a paraglider pilot does and fly a smaller radius, in general follow the sail plane and never to reverse his turns as now it is the hang glider that is the slower flying wing. Cheers Tony

[John Fritsche]

And don't forget to make as much eye contact as possible. I have gotten really nervous and have bailed out of thermals because the other pilot(s) don't seem to be paying any attention to the fact that I'm there.
And don't forget the greatest way to avoid any mid-air collision worries: just get and stay a lot higher than the wankers crowding the lift below you.

[irene]

I would like to remind all pilots that landing at Westmont is forbidden. Please do not think of Westmont as possible landing area, even with strong west wind.
Use it only as an emergency LZ, but be ready to be seriously busted... I have been seriously threatened by the guard over there.