Collision at West Bowl

[Chris G]

Heh the "bowling pin" effect is when one pilot comes barreling through the middle of a thermal without properly merging, causing pilots already in the thermal to scatter....like bowling pins.

There IS a place where a collision can occur if pilots strictly follow the RoW rules. It happens when one pilot is following another with the ridge on their left. The first pilot does a 180º turn, giving them the right of way. If they take it and try to cut to the inside they risk a collision with the pilot following them. In that case it's safer to stay to the outside until the pilot following them has passed. Unfortunately, on a busy ridge, this can sometimes lead to a reversed pattern because the person with the ridge now on their right simply doesn't have space to cut back to the inside. Happens almost every day at the point.

[Ramey]

Hmmm - never thought about that.

Maybe that's why I was scared ****less flying at torrey.

An interesting case - though I don't see occurring very often here - if ever.

Robert Ramey

[Tony de Groot]

I would like to thank the pilot who was involved in the collision to post his thoughts. That takes courage and helps us all out to understand what happened. Kudos for everyone to be civil on here as well. We are not machines and make mistakes but what we have here are people working to understand and prevent future problems.

As a hang glider pilot here are a few thoughts about what I and I think other HG pilots, and probably other experienced PG pilots are looking for when thermaling togethor.

1) Coming straight at someone. This is very disconcerting for a HG pilot. Because we are flying faster our closing time is even shorter and it takes us some major weight shifting and loss of altitude to avoid the other pilot. What you should do if you notice you are coming straight at someone HG or PG is pretend we are flying on a ridge and turn just a bit to the right. Then the other pilot turns a bit to his right and presto, they now both have space to move or to join in a thermal togethor or just continue on their way.

If I'm in a thermal I could tighten up and turn early before we get close if I had room and allow you to follow me into the thermal I'm in. The thing is to make the decision early and not let the gap close. This is the decision both pilots need to make.

2) When thermaling HG pilots and I'm sure other PG pilots really like it when a PG or anyone else stays turning in the same direction. If we need to move to follow the thermal wait until you can open up your turn rather than rerolling. Never reroll when in thermals and someone is close to you or at your heighth.

3) Unless you are going somewhere, if you see someone coming from another peak and he comes under you and is climbing fast move out of the way as they are trying to move around the course, are probably experienced and will climb fast and be gone and you can return to the spot you were at.

4) The fourth thing is when climbing with another pilot try tuning into their rythmn, speed and distance in a circle constantly having eye contact with the other pilots and making the small movements of tightening and widening as the lift directs you. Try to constantly be able to see them and them see you.

5) I've also seen good PG pilots turning in slightly smaller circles so they are slightly behind in their thermal distance to the HG pilot. As a HG flies faster and this will give more room for the HG pilot and so the HG pilot won't catch up and run into the PG pilot.

6) Realize where the other pilots blind spots are. For a HG pilot it's up for a PG pilot it's I'm not sure well I think they have pretty good visibility.

I think this is more of an experience thing than a PG or HG thing. I've had many, many great thermaling flights with experienced PG pilots here, Marshall and elswhere.

Cheers, Tony DG

[zippy]

How is it possible that no one has pointed out that the most important rule is missing?

CLEAR YOUR TURNS!

As I see it, that is the first rule and the last rule(teaching principal of Primary/Recency).

this is also known as "see and avoid" and means looking all around before you begin to turn (not once the turn has begun). It also means looking around as you're flying so that you are aware of other pilots near you, so that if you hit turbulence or lift you know which ways are clear.

And unless you're flying a sail-plane, realise that there could be other pilots flying faster wings that could be over taking you (look behind as well as forward). This is especially important on a ridge where you might not be turning, but slowly adjusting your path to get closer in... you could be cutting off someone trying to correctly pass on the ridge side. Others may disagree, but Chris's rule #7 originated from powered aircraft and I believe is irrelavant to soaring aircraft.

ALSO: If you're aproaching head-on, stay to the right. (When on a ridge, the pilot with the ridge on their right has the right of way. Other pilots must yield to the outside.)

#5 from Chris is a great recomendation, however is not a rule. I prefer simplicity and would leave it out (same with #8, if you're adavanced enough to be conducting manuevers you should know this)

Here's a quick and dirty edit of the great start from Chris:

1. Always clear your turns before initiating.
2. The lower pilot has the right of way. Especially important when hang gliders are involved because upward visibility is low. They can't see you!
3. When approaching head-on, stay to the right. (yield to a pilot with the ridge on their right)
4. When passing another pilot on a ridge, pass to the inside so that you don't trap them against the ridge.
5. The first pilot in a thermal sets the turn direction.
6. When two pilots are converging on a point, the pilot on the right has the right of way.
7. Always clear your turns. (See and avoid)

Thanks for listening to my two cents. As a vetran of the Pt of the Mt. I'd gladly speak about ROW rules, and tips for flying the friendly skys.

Zippy

[trifco]

... please let the ATOS come thru-I thermal the glider at anywhere between 25-33 mph and the visability upward is marginal.

For pilots that don't know what is the ATOS:
http://www.a-i-r-usa.com/content.asp?ID=4259

Qustion.. Tony is this your next glider ?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=629

[redfly]

my 2 cents about thermaling with other types of aircraft.

- each type of glider has different blind spots, speed ranges, turning radius and typical climbing rates - if you fly a lot with other type of aircraft you should know their peculiarities (each one of them!).

- the slowest aircraft usually flies to smallest circles and things naturally separate in a good thermal. this would mean, innermost PG, then HG, then sailplane. note however that the thermaling speed of a PG and a HG is not necessarily all that different (from experience).

- the aircraft on the smallest circle often climbs fastest, but not necessarily so.

- AFAIK: blind spots of a HG are upward (whole upper hemisphere) and backwards. blind spots of a PG are backwards (both downwards and upwards, i.e. whole "back" hemisphere) and somewhat forward/upward (canopy). sailplanes is downwards and somewhat upward/backward.

- the faster the aircraft the higher the surprise effect. e.g. sailplanes can appear out of nowhere and are gone again after you did half a turn. if you expect fast traffic be extra alert.

- if in doubt, make yourself visible and/or heard.

[tom mayer]

[quote="redfly"]my 2 cents about thermaling with other types of aircraft.
Redfly, I would hope that you would review your statements regarding your views expressed in your post.
You start off with an unarguable position that:
- "each type of glider has different blind spots, speed ranges, turning radius and typical climbing rates - if you fly a lot with other type of aircraft you should know their peculiarities (each one of them!)."
You then start drifting away from fact, and for you to continue to believe in what you state could potentially put yourself and someone else in grave danger.

- "the slowest aircraft usually flies to smallest circles and things naturally separate in a good thermal. this would mean, innermost PG, then HG, then sailplane. note however that the thermaling speed of a PG and a HG is not necessarily all that different (from experience).
Redfly, the thermaling speed of a HG is vastly different than that of a PG. A HG has a speed range that is exponentially greater than that of a PG. The only difference that a thermal presents is that it the airmass has a vertical speed element. The greater the lift, the wider the range of angle of attack and bank angle, speed and thus the ability to widen or tighten our turning radius. Though it is not a common or a recommended practice, a HG could flat spin UP in a thermal (I have done it). The important thing here is not the radius, but the speed. that is where the real danger lies. There is a difference in our flying speeds...always.

- "the aircraft on the smallest circle often climbs fastest, but not necessarily so."
So right you are, a HG is so much more aerodynamic that it could very easily out-climb a PG and have a much larger turn radius. On light days I watch enviously as PG's out climb me as I flounder around low and have to glide out to the beach. On the other hand, on strong days, I have photos showing me coring at 50 degree bank angles with 30 degree angle of attack. Do the math, that's a very small circle.

-" the faster the aircraft the higher the surprise effect. e.g. sailplanes can appear out of nowhere and are gone again after you did half a turn. if you expect fast traffic be extra alert."
Right you are again Redfly! Remember, I am going very fast compared to you. When going thermal to thermal I may be traveling at over 50 mph! And remember, I cannot slow down as fast as you. You can use your brakes, pull big ears and what have you. All I can do is push out and climb. Throwing a drogue chute is not an option.
Despite the difference between us aerodynamically, we can still share the sky safely and respectfully. It just takes a great deal of attention to everything and everyone around you. Remember too, that this recent incident was between two PG's and the outcome was rather benign. Had the same incident been between a HG and a PG things could have been much different.

[SA]

I was at the USHPA Board of Directors Meeting in Texas when this mid air collision occurred. All the input given has helped everyone learn from this event. That’s all we can really do at this point. This isn’t the first mid air in SB, and unfortunately it is not likely to be the last, it’s just the most recent. Hopefully we can digest all the practical input on this thread to minimize the chances of it happening in the future.

Right of way rules are pretty simple really when we read them in a book or on this thread. Just because someone has a mid air doesn’t mean they don’t understand the right of way rules. Every day poses different challenges in extending our flights, and hopefully our continuing assessment of the conditions and traffic dictates how we fly. We need to adjust our flying accordingly when its active flying with respect to conditions and traffic.

Sometimes we soar in the mountains with traffic in a tight space and minimal terrain clearance, and the rules even if flown correctly are not always going to work. They are there as a guideline to give us order, but you shouldn’t force anything that will put you or another pilot in danger even if it’s what the right of way rules say in the book. At some point, somebody has got to leave and make space for those who were there first and go find lift someplace else. Or you may have already had an hour working the area, and decide to fly away and try your luck someplace else and let another pilot have a go at soaring the location. Situational awareness tells you when following the right of way rules may be more difficult due to the traffic and conditions. We had a mid air at the US nationals at Dunlap this year with two very experienced pilots. Both pilots were unharmed, and one pilot threw his reserve, and landed safely in some trees.

I agree with the assessment of this being an extremely effective regrettable learning experience. We all realize the seriousness of this situation. We can’t make all the mistakes in life ourselves, and we have to learn from others. Pilots here will now be paying more attention in traffic because of what occurred.

The rules are there, but they are not going to be followed at all times by all pilots, and someone just may not see you. To suggest that a collision cannot occur if the rules are followed by everyone is untrue. I have seen pilot’s turning the same direction get tangled and throw their reserves.

There is no doubt this recent mid air was pilot error, and could have had a different ending. Thankfully it is only a learning experience, with no price to pay by the pilots involved. The pilots were lucky it ended without injury given how much terrain clearance they had when the event occurred, and we all get the lesson which will hopefully help all of us to do our best to prevent us having a mid air, and motivate us to be prepared if we were to find ourselves in a similar situation. We can’t pull in the bar and do a rapid decent in a paraglider. We don’t have a bar to pull in like a hang glider, and by the time you realize you’re in danger it’s likely too late to try anything heroic. You may be able to turn the glider, but in this case the only exit was towards terrain according to the pilot. We have to increase the distance we fly from other pilots if conditions and traffic become questionable. Fly away from a lift source if the traffic and conditions call for more space.

Those who haven’t sat in a simulator and pulled their reserve parachute recently to get the feel and muscle memory need to do it. I bet the new P2’s are the most recent pilots to go through this exercise in the simulator during their training. You do the move once during your training, and don’t practice it again until you get your reserve repacked. You need to pull your handle and throw your reserve every time you get a repack. You need to be ready to throw in the wild. It’s something you need to think about and something you need to practice. We throw our reserve parachutes at the lake during our clinics to make it familiar and gain knowledge from the experience. I would much rather have pilots of any level prematurely choose to throw their reserve instead of waiting too long. Reserve parachutes work. Be ready to use your rescue.

Let’s remember we need a minimal amount of altitude to use our rescue, so whenever you get in close to the terrain its like you are flying without a reserve parachute. Always giving yourself terrain clearance gives you the opportunity to cash in your insurance policy. You need to continually evaluate and monitor the conditions while flying if you are choosing to get in close to the terrain.

Some great information has come out of this incident from hang gliders and paragliders. We have gained some understanding on the different turning radius considerations, speeds, and visibility aspects of each others aircraft. Let’s take this knowledge and aspire to fly with each other safely. We have a very supportive community here, and I encourage all of you to digest the following practical points made by everyone on this thread. Let others know your intentions with your head, and make eye contact. You must use your voice and yell if you see something potentially dangerous developing. Make the decision early to be proactive and avoid getting close to anyone. When thermaling in traffic it’s your job to have your head on a swivel looking for pilots anywhere around you and above and below. Don’t be aggressive when it’s crowded. Be familiar with your reserve handle location, and practice looking for it, and holding it when the time is right.

The instructors in this community are always willing to walk you through a reserve deployment in the simulator. I imagine it has been a while for most. Please stop by the training hill and let any of us take you through a deployment. You need to be confident in your reserve parachute, and willing to use it when necessary. Remember to fly with enough terrain clearance to make your rescue an option when the situation calls for it.

[Ramey]

"The rules are there, but they are not going to be followed at all times by all pilots,..."

And this is NOT OK. It is the source of many or most or all of these problems - including this latest incident. Thanks for giving me a heads up on this. I'll have to plan accordingly.

"To suggest that a collision cannot occur if the rules are followed by everyone is untrue."

It's certainly true with regards to this latest incidence. Chris's scenario was interesting to me - It left me curious how this situation get's resolved at point of the mountain where it seems to happen very frequently. Still, it's not particularly relevant to our flying around here.

"I have seen pilot’s turning the same direction get tangled and throw their reserves"

And no one is at fault? It's just an inevitable thing we have to accept? and this is OK? Is this an argument/justification for local pilots setting aside the right of rules when they find it convenient?

"There is no doubt this recent mid air was pilot error, ...."

If ignoring the right of way rules was not the error - what was the actual error?

"and we all get the lesson which will hopefully help all of us to do our best to prevent us having a mid air,"

And what is that lesson exactly? If I can't count on another pilot following the rules I can only fly away or accept the possibility that he may crash into me and kill me as a price of my continuing to fly.

"We have to increase the distance we fly from other pilots if conditions and traffic become questionable. Fly away from a lift source if the traffic and conditions call for more space."

Well that's just common sense which can't really be codified. It's no substitute for following established right of way rules.

"I agree with the assessment of this being an extremely effective regrettable learning experience. We all realize the seriousness of this situation. We can’t make all the mistakes in life ourselves, and we have to learn from others. Pilots here will now be paying more attention in traffic because of what occurred."

"Hopefully we can digest all the practical input on this thread to minimize the chances of it happening in the future."

Hmmm - and what is such a "digestion" likely to yield? I just don't think the above sentiments will make anyone safer.

"This isn’t the first mid air in SB, and unfortunately it is not likely to be the last, it’s just the most recent."

The suggestion that these incidences are inevitable it very disturbing to me. The incidences that I'm aware of, including the current one, only occurred because someone didn't follow the right of way rules and would not have happened otherwise.

I do believe that everyone will be safer if everyone is aware of and follows the right of way rules. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

The right of way rules are clear and generally easy to follow. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

Ignoring these rules needlessly puts other pilots in mortal danger. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

Robert Ramey

[SA]

"The rules are there, but they are not going to be followed at all times by all pilots,..."

And this is NOT OK. It is the source of many or most or all of these problems - including this latest incident. Thanks for giving me a heads up on this. I'll have to plan accordingly.

>>We don’t live in vacuum. Plan accordingly.

"To suggest that a collision cannot occur if the rules are followed by everyone is untrue."

It's certainly true with regards to this latest incidence. Chris's scenario was interesting to me - It left me curious how this situation get's resolved at point of the mountain where it seems to happen very frequently. Still, it's not particularly relevant to our flying around here.

>>It is true in the latest incident, and nobody is arguing this. Your original claim was absolute and incorrect.

"I have seen pilot’s turning the same direction get tangled and throw their reserves"

And no one is at fault? It's just an inevitable thing we have to accept? and this is OK? Is this an argument/justification for local pilots setting aside the right of rules when they find it convenient?

>>Yes Bob, it would be nice if we had USB inputs in the back of our heads and could download a computer program that maybe you created to minimize these occurrences. Unfortunately we are all human. My reference to the pilots who tangled turning the same direction in Mexico was evaluated by those who witnessed the event. Everyone talked to the pilots afterwards, and we all agreed it was a tricky one to avoid. No one is setting the right of way rules aside. You are completely missing the point.

"There is no doubt this recent mid air was pilot error, ...."

If ignoring the right of way rules was not the error - what was the actual error?

>>The pilot needed to react sooner and avoid any potential collision. I’m referring to this statement made by the pilot. “I saw a glider well ahead of me turn right and come on to a collision course. There was plenty of separation, and I assumed he would continue his turn (a very bad mistake).”
>>The pilot assumed it would work out. This was the pilot error.

"and we all get the lesson which will hopefully help all of us to do our best to prevent us having a mid air,"

And what is that lesson exactly? If I can't count on another pilot following the rules I can only fly away or accept the possibility that he may crash into me and kill me as a price of my continuing to fly.

>>If you count on other pilots to always be following the rules you are likely to run into trouble. I hope you don’t count on folks driving automobiles to always follow the rules. Your insurance premium is likely high if you’re running this program.

"We have to increase the distance we fly from other pilots if conditions and traffic become questionable. Fly away from a lift source if the traffic and conditions call for more space."

Well that's just common sense which can't really be codified. It's no substitute for following established right of way rules.

>>I know you want to fit all this into a nice order, but there are too many variables at times to arrange things into a systematic collection. The rules are there, and we should all follow them, but sometimes the rules can’t work in a given situation.

"I agree with the assessment of this being an extremely effective regrettable learning experience. We all realize the seriousness of this situation. We can’t make all the mistakes in life ourselves, and we have to learn from others. Pilots here will now be paying more attention in traffic because of what occurred."

"Hopefully we can digest all the practical input on this thread to minimize the chances of it happening in the future."

Hmmm - and what is such a "digestion" likely to yield? I just don't think the above sentiments will make anyone safer.

>>I disagree...I think this experience brings lots of important factors to light. They call it awareness.

"This isn’t the first mid air in SB, and unfortunately it is not likely to be the last, it’s just the most recent."

The suggestion that these incidences are inevitable it very disturbing to me. The incidences that I'm aware of, including the current one, only occurred because someone didn't follow the right of way rules and would not have happened otherwise.

>>Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, this will not be the last mid air. Hopefully it will be the last in our area due to the knowledge passed along in this thread, but I’m not holding my breath.

I do believe that everyone will be safer if everyone is aware of and follows the right of way rules. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

The right of way rules are clear and generally easy to follow. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

>>No, I feel everyone will be safer if the rules are followed, but just like at the Point of the Mountain, Torrey Pines, and many other flying sites the rules cannot be followed at all times.

Ignoring these rules needlessly puts other pilots in mortal danger. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

>>Yes ignoring the rules is bad, but following the right of rules at all times is impossible.

[Ramey]

>>The pilot needed to react sooner and avoid any potential collision. I’m referring to this statement made by the pilot. “I saw a glider well ahead of me turn right and come on to a collision course. There was plenty of separation, and I assumed he would continue his turn (a very bad mistake).”

>>The pilot assumed it would work out. This was the pilot error.

Maybe this is the crux of the problem here. I'm flying along and someone ahead of me turns and comes at me on a collision course. Now I'm committing an error by not getting out of the way fast enough? How am I to know what he is going to do? He's already tossed the rules out the window. Now suppose it's concluded I'm obligated to take some sort of evasive action - what is that supposed to be. How can the other pilot know what I'm going to do? I don't think you're making any sense here.

>>If you count on other pilots to always be following the rules you are likely to run into trouble. I hope you don’t count on folks driving automobiles to always follow the rules. Your insurance premium is likely high if you’re running this program.

Well this is a great analogy. We DO count on other people following the rules when driving. I don't stop at every green light because I have confidence that cross traffic will stop at a red light. Sometimes someone breaks the rules and there is a collision. The driver who broke the rules is held responsible. He can't say "Well - it's just the risk you have to run if you choose to drive".

Actually, in driving the rules are enforced even when there isn't a collision. It's not considered a acceptable to excuse running a red light by saying - "The situation didn't require following the rules" and if you say "I didn't follow the rules because doing so would put me at risk" the burden is upon you to make such a case. (good luck with that one). There is a good reason that these rules are enforced so inflexibly. There are a large number of people who believe that such rules should apply only to everyone else because they're skilled drivers or have better judgment or have special circumstances or whatever. This generally is just a person trying to justify doing whatever he wants at the expense of everyone else. Or they're just boneheads.

And this whole line of reasoning is directly applicable to the situation at hand.

>>No, I feel everyone will be safer if the rules are followed, but just like at the Point of the Mountain, Torrey Pines, and many other flying sites the rules cannot be followed at all times.

Ignoring these rules needlessly puts other pilots in mortal danger. Does anyone seriously dispute this?

>>Yes ignoring the rules is bad, but following the right of rules at all times is impossible.

Well, it looks like we can agree on

a) the rules are pretty simple.
b) everyone should know them.
c) everyone should follow them.
d) following these rules would have avoided all known mid-air in our local mountains - including the most recent one.
e) for whatever reason, some people will not always follow the rules.

Which I guess is an improvement.

Robert Ramey

[GeoW]

I spent a little time on the simulator with my harness, trying to see If there was a simple reason why I could not find my reserve handle after the collision occurred. It turns out to be pretty simple.

When I am sitting back in my harness, the handle is easily visible at my right side. But, when I am forward in the harness (launch and landing position) the view of the handle is obscured by the risers. The collision knocked me into the forward position, and I was obviously not ready for this difference. I suggest everyone know where the handle is in both positions, because it is not in anything like the same place.

George Williams

[Benson]

Pilot error was a cause of the collision, but why did the error occur. I suspect both pilots suffered from object fixation. Why else would two pilots fly directly into each other? If they didn't freeze a minor manuver by either pilot would have avoided the problem.

And what about deployment, there are times when it doesn't seem like an option. The face of west bowl seems like it might be one of those times.

[Parma Chris]

[JimmyZ]

I think that flight and right-of-way rules could be a great topic for an upcoming meeting. Posting on the website would be fine too if we think it would be effective. I think that some of the pilots that have been flying for years, but maybe not as often to keep sharp, could benefit from going over these basic concepts. Pilots that fly in crowded sites have to know these rules, but here in SB, gaggle/crowded flying is not as common and could be confusing to the rusty pilot.

What do you think?