brainstorming rules and regs

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brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:54 pm

It is a tough job of making rules and regulations and since this has been up for debate, it seems like an opportunity to throw out some thoughts and questions regarding this…In my opinion, there are several things to take into account.

The first and most important component is, pilot responsibility. A lot of variables exist with this. Did they have proper instruction? Is their paperwork in order? Do they possess local knowledge? Do they understand weather forecasting? What is their attitude about the task at hand (honest gut check)? Is their gear in good flying shape? Do they have safety gear?

Is this easy to control? Are we all checking weather? Do we fly when others are in the air, knowing that there are some days we maybe should drive down? Did we all have the same instructor/ instruction? Are we current with our flying? Do we think about the consequence of making a poor choice or only after the fact? Are all licensed pilots the same? How many strikes do we give non- local and local pilots before we had enough?

The next thought is, locals dealing with non locals. I have seen all schools do a great job in educating new pilots with flying the sites in SB and filling out all proper paperwork. Local pilots do a very nice job of giving info to pilots new to the area. But it is still challenging because, how do we really know a stranger’s skill in the air? Do we ask for license and resume and recommendations? Do we ask who was your teacher? We know that all instructors are not equal. People can story tell, fabricate past experiences. Who should give intro to the non-local, anyone? What if we give some advice about maybe flying another day and they launch anyway, only to land in a tree deep in the valley? Who to blame? Do we explain to them what may have been the reason for the mishap? Should we all carry waivers for new pilots in the area just in case they did not fill one out? And this is only the beginning, pre-launch, what about in the air?

Based on the idea of gate keeping new and non-local pilots, comes the responsibility of regulator. This is something that many sites have employed, but there are once again many logistics to consider that have made many locals very upset. With the idea that they cannot fly when they want. Does it keep the traffic down, of course…less accidents, yes, because fewer are flying. Are there still issues that occur? Yes. What this means is that someone would have to be at all launch sites everyday making sure that your equipment is appropriate to fly safely, paperwork in order, license up to date. The regulator would be the obvious person to give site information. Who would take this role? Would it be volunteer or paid by local pilots? Perhaps each local pilot picking one day a week to take watch and help out even if it’s a flying day? Would the regulator stick to the rules? If one local pilot shows up without radio or back-up batteries, do you send him home to get one? Does the regulator take blame if a mishap happens? How many strikes at launch until the gatekeeper steps in and says you’re out of here?

Lastly, comes some thought about the local paragliding schools and their role. This is a delicate matter. I was a mountain guide for 14 years teaching rock climbing, ice climbing and backcountry skiing also having taught paragliding for a few years. I have found nothing more nerve wracking sometimes, then sending students into the abyss with the guidance of just my voice over the radio, hoping that they stick with the game plan. Pretty sure all of us have witnessed a teacher take the big breath after someone’s first mountain flight. It’s a big step to go from the training hill to the mountains. I think the schools are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. But it still raises the question, can we make this different? Are all instructors certain that students will follow the flight plan? What if the student, just this one day does things all wrong? Who is to blame, teacher or student? What about funky air? Can an instructor make a mistake due to pressure?

All these questions have answers, some short some long, many with much debate. Everyone plays the game for different reasons. Rules are a good thing, they keep a balance, but how many of us break the rules when it benefits us, not just flying but in life? In my opinion, we have adequate rules and a good community of talented pilots, with the occasional mishap. Which has happened to all of us, sooner or later in our flying career. As for the non-local who flies in and has no regard for himself or others, is it better to shake our head, hoping he leaves soon? Because in one day, we cannot change someone’s vision or control their actions too dramatically If this pilot chooses to stay for multiple days and fly, then action needs to be taken. These are just my humble thoughts and questions that come up when I ponder regulating our great spot. I hope you can chime in with your feelings as well.

Of course, I hope you all know by now….that I still think it comes down to personal accountability, but I am sure you have gotten that point already :D

Yeah, it's a long one, it's raining...what do ya expect?!

Gary
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Joel DJ » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:16 pm

My 2 cents (adjusted for inflation = not very much):

It seems infeasible to try to monitor and regulate all the flying sites, but with the sensitivity of our sites it seems that there should be some attempt to limit the damage that certain clowns might cause with their disregard of local protocol. One need only recall the incidents in Malibu that led to the closing of the flying sites by the Santa Monica Mountain Conservancy. You never know which straw might break the camel's back and ruin it for everyone. That being said, this is free-flying...

I think Ramey's idea of giving visiting pilots a handout of local rules and checking them for a 2-M Radio before giving them a ride is right on track. If they don't want to comply, don't give 'em a ride. (Business-op for local schools or entrepreneurs: rent 'em a radio for 15 bucks if they want to fly). Of course they still might ride up on their own anyway, not much you can do. If he screws up, chew his ass out! If he continues to disregard and disrespect our local rules, tell him he's an a-hole and he's not welcome back! Black-list him! Not a guarantee, but when I'm not welcome I generally stay away.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby John Fritsche » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:51 pm

The kind/extent of regulation that you're talking about, Gary, exists at very, very few flying sites. The launches and/or LZs at those sites are usually privately owned by pilots or clubs. Most places, it would be somewhere between impractical and impossible to have that kind of control. The best you can do is offer as much friendly help and advice as possible to whatever pilots, local or nonlocal, happen to be around. You can't assert authority that you don't really have--like, for example, telling someone without a radio that they can't launch at Alternator.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:34 pm

thanks for posting Joel...rule list is great idea but what about when van does not go up? Rules posted at launch?I agree, very delicate and you never know what or who will cause a closure.
As for chewing out someone and callling them a-hole,thats great as long as you can hold your own ground :D ,because some may take to trading blows when feeling insulted.Can we prevent that? Lets have a look...so you ride in the van with this new pilot,he or she looks at the rules and signs forms.Everything is great until airborne then all goes to hell and you can't believe what you are seeing.When they land you give them a briefing which is great or a smack.The gray area in this seems to be the part that we can only witness, another pilot making a poor choice in the air? Can we control that area of paragliding? Maybe after first episode but it just takes one time to cause a big event.
Last edited by gary begley on Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:37 pm

I agree John...thanks for posting
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Bo Criss » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:22 pm

I've been enjoying paragliding for 13+ years and in that time I've witnessed many events. Some happened to me, some to my friends, some to acquaintances, some I've just read about.

After some time, a pilot will come to recognize patterns. Whether it's about conditions on launch, the way the thermal is manifesting on a particular day, the way a particular pilot responds to flying with others, even the way pilots approach their flying and what stage they are in. The longer one works at a subject, the more in tune they become with possible outcomes - good and bad.

I don't feel like I need to comment on all that happens in SB flying, and I don't. When I see something that's obvious, that I think will lead to a poor outcome, it's just me, but I've got to say something. That's what I do, it's not right or wrong, it's just what I do. I feel like if I don't say something to one that's doing something dangerous, I'm not doing my part. As an instructor and an ambassador to this great sport, I'm looking for the sport to grow safely. When an accident occurs, it really doesn't help anyone - the pilot, the pilot's family, the flying community, future pilots - it doesn't help them.

Do my words have affect? I don't know. My gut tells me that some will listen and gain in perspective, some might defiantly do the opposite. I believe in education. Teaching is one of the greatest talents one can pursue. I would say speaking about the sport and how to avoid incidents is a worthy cause. I believe this forum is one great tool for all of us to learn and grow. I will continue to contribute and my focus remains on safety and enjoyment of flying.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Knut Aakhus » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:55 pm

The aphorism comes to mind: "what is tolerated, is condoned."

If Instructors, Observers, Examiners, or established locals see flying (or patterns of flying) that they consider truly negligent, it likely serves a common good for them to voice disapproval. It would probably take a lot of this sort of thing--repeatedly with little provocation--to build an unwelcoming reputation and dissuade committed visitors and newcomers.

Even if there isn't a basis to actually prohibit or forbid the occasional renegade, hopefully such cautious disavowals can at least help others to better define the sometimes blurry boundary between unsafe and merely progressive flying for themselves.

We know that civic responsibility and site preservation simply don't allow for an entirely laissez-faire, vol-libre attitude, and we know equally well that any sort of para-tyranny, bullying, or closed-door exclusivity run contrary to the spirit of free flight and the adventurous traditions of Santa Barbara and Topa greats (so I hear).

To me, as a relative newcomer, the club(s) have found a good compromise between the two extremes:
- The SBSA homepage has a list of guides, the rules are posted, and the local schools also offer site intros
- The community in general seems to exercise restrained concern for new/visiting pilot skill level: inquisitive and helpful but not overbearing or obtrusive.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:39 am

Thanks for posting.All very well said and agreed with. To keep dialogue going, of course any serious accident or death is grim. I have experienced both. I would never wish this upon anyone (but the death part happens sooner or later to all of us, i guess :) ). The unfortunate thing is that most of us often learn most from our mistakes and mishaps which most of the time end up with just a scrap and a bruised ego or a torn glider. At that time, the little voice in our head says, "I know better than this". But sometimes in life, we only learn the true lesson, not by others but by gaining true wisdom from our personal experience after we have made these small mistakes....and growing from them, in flying and in life. Should we still educate along the way, of course! Can this be extremely frustrating when you know the outcome of making poor choices, hell yeah!

Gary
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:44 am

Group Mentality as an Influence on Behavior
Zachary T. Mott

When humans congregate together, the dynamics of interacting influence the actions of each individual. Conformity describes the degree to which an individual will change his or her behavior in order to be accepted into a group. Lumbert broke down the causes of conformity into five main motivations: correctness, social acceptance, group goals, social identity, and alignment with similar people. In my opinion, Lumbert was too reductive in neatly dividing motivation to conform into those categories. A member of a particular group is influenced in large part by the actions and expectations of his or her fellow group members. The strength of this influence can depend on several factors, including the self-esteem or confidence of the individual and the individual's status in the group. Effects of group influence on individuals are conditional upon the individual's inclusion in the group; once the individual leaves the group, he or she will usually resume his or her previous behavior.

Being in a group has a powerful effect on the individual. A person's behavior, especially negative behavior, may vary greatly depending on whether or not that person is a member of a group. Kiesler and Kiesler (1969) attributed this behavioral change to a reduced fear of negative consequences for an individual if he or she is acting within a group. This theory explains the actions of individuals in riots or mobs who would not perform criminal acts on an individual basis. Whereas a group member has less concern for those outside of his group, the opinions and behaviors of other members have a direct impact on the individual's behavior. Groups function on consensus, so there is pressure on each member to agree with the majority's opinion. Failure to agree can lead to rejection or banishment from the group. Fear of rejection is so strong that most of the time the dissenters end up agreeing with the majority opinion to remain in the group. The influence of group mentality to force an individual to change his or her opinion can depend on several factors, including the self-esteem and status of the individual.

Self-esteem can be a factor in how much influence a group has over an individual. Individuals with low self-esteem tend to have a low opinion of their abilities. When a group is given a problem, an individual with low self-esteem will be more likely to accept the group's conclusion and believe it to be correct even if he or she arrives at a different answer. However, an individual with high self-esteem who believes that his or her answer is correct may also agree with the group consensus in order to retain membership in the group. Kiesler and Kiesler (1969) termed this the difference between private acceptance and public compliance. The desire for group consensus can cause some individuals to change their opinions completely and to believe that the group consensus or norm is correct (private acceptance) or cause the individual to agree publicly with the group but still dissent in private (public compliance). When questioned in presence of group members, the latter would repeat the group consensus, but if asked in private, he or she would disagree.

In addition to the self-esteem of an individual, the relationship of the individual to the other members of the group also plays a role in determining whether or not the group norm is privately accepted. He or she will have an easier time privately accepting the group's consensus if other members of the group share the same general attitudes or opinions as the individual. The status of group members also contributes to the acceptance of the group norm. If one of the other group members has a much higher status, and therefore higher credibility, this increases the likelihood of the consensus being privately accepted by the dissenting individual.

Only individuals with high status in the group are allowed to deviate from the group norm or consensus with impunity. Although status can be achieved based on relevant skills or charisma, it has also been suggested that status is attained as a result of previous group compliance (Kiesler & Kiesler, 1969). In essence, because the person has agreed with the group many times in the past, he or she is now allowed to deviate more than other group members. Because the individual's status is dependent on the correctness of the group, he or she will deviate from the group's norms in order to shift the group to what that individual perceives as the correct path. Of course if this fails, then the person's status could be lost nevertheless. Otherwise the high status individual conforms very closely to the group norm in order to influence group members to comply and keep the group viable, retaining status in the process. Status also influences the actions that individuals perform in groups. A new member would be relegated to menial tasks owing to his or her status as the lowest-ranking member of the group.

Group dynamics are very complicated; thus motivations may be harder to separate and classify than Lumbert suggested. Although people try to maintain a social identity by belonging to certain groups, within each group members fit into individual roles on the basis of their status within the group. This status is also dependent on how the individual conforms to the ideals of the group. The accomplishment of group goals also affects individual status, as does failing to meet those goals. Motivation to conform is also affected by an individual's self-esteem his or her relationships with other group members. Certainly the five motivations outlined by Lumbert affect how a person behaves in a group, but attention needs to be paid to how these motivations are inter-related.
Kiesler, C. A., & Kiesler, S. B. (1969). Conformity. Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley

Do you see Goup mentality behavior in paragliding ? Choices? Safety? Egos?
Of course it has a positive side but does it create the problems that we try to fix ? I fly all the time in SB,most of the time during the week with a few or just a driver for safety.Its interesting to me how fast many will walk away when things look strange but when the group gets larger...they go for it! Why? Would we consider this mentality a danger to this fragile flying area? Can we control this?

posted this before,but seems like a good spot to add.

Personal Responsibility, Choice and Awareness in Paragliding

Let me ask you this, would you try and race Lance Armstrong up a hill, climb El Capitan with Lynn Hill, or big wave surf with Laird Hamilton? My guess is no you wouldn’t. The reason for this is because it is quite clear that your physical and mental ability are not prepared for such a task, unless you have devoted years and years to training both mind and body to do such a thing. Paragliding is first and foremost aviation and it is often viewed as an air sport. All of which I agree with. The term sport is used loosely, in that paragliding does not require a high level of true athleticism and physical training, which I too agree. A few
steps and you’re off, and this herein lies the crux in paragliding. Some days in magical air, you can be playing with the elite, which has nothing to do with your skill as a pilot but rather just the gift that mother nature has offered, leaving you disillusioned about your true ability. How many of you follow blindly just chasing others not knowing really what mother nature is doing? Can you perform in new areas the same way? Most athletics and adventure sports demand both physical and mental skills be matched for the task at hand. These only come through hard work, discipline and time.

The arena in paragliding has such an immense mix of levels in pilot ability ranging from first time fliers to elite pilots. This phenomenon rarely exists in any other adventure sport or activity. For example, in skiing a 50 degree slope, you will not have a beginner slicing across the hill, where it is evident death can occur should you make a mistake or climbing a 5.13 no matter how much your mind and ego want you to do it, you will not be able to pull yourself up. The examples are vast to prove this point.

We can blame others and try to find excuses and reasons as to why incidents occur, but what it really comes down to most of the time is pilot error, and sure human error will inevitably happen. But the majority of time, it is lack of skill and critical thinking that is missing. The moment the pilot steps out of his/her car it becomes their responsibility to have the awareness as to whether it is a day for them personally to fly; not if everyone else is flying and not if the forum says it will be a good day. If there is any question about the day’s forecast and you are thinking it may be too strong for you, that could be the first sign. But should you wish to take it further, ask someone whose guidance you can trust. If you chose not to follow the guidance of those more experienced (keeping in mind that they too are human and make mistakes), just realize that you may suffer the consequence of a poor choice, while also potentially putting someone else at risk for your decision. This is a challenging component for educators, passing on the wisdom that truly only comes from life experience, making the mistakes and learning from them; hopefully without too much severity or serious trauma. And as we know, there is that risk in paragliding. However, in becoming an independent pilot, one needs to check their ego at the door and make a choice that is appropriate for them and their skill level, realizing that the patience and training will pay off with time. Remember in the end, most people fly for recreation and no use scaring yourself out of a beautiful sport. Keep taking small steps, traveling, educating yourself in the sport and the psychology behind it always keeping the bigger picture in mind with humility. It is supposed to be fun, so go out there and have some
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Joel DJ » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:12 am

So basically, what you're saying is we need to attack the dissenting indivual in an angry mob? :lol:
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby gary begley » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:14 am

:lol: :D
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Andre L » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:19 pm

I read this forum for time to time and I have to admit this week has been very entertaining. I’ve been flying off and on for close to 20 years and I’ve seen clubs and pilots come and go. I’ve flown Kagel and Marshall in the past quite a bit but I have yet to fly in Santa Barbara. The reason I’ve been following the discussions lately is because I was hoping to get to fly Santa Barbara this year and was checking in to see if anyone was posting about good flying opportunities. When I saw that your board was alive with the topic of how to deal with rules and regulations I had to laugh because I too have been involved with clubs and have found myself on both sides of the fence when it comes to these issues, and they’re always sticky. Something else really got my attention though, and I have some interesting info directly related to one of your members that appears to be making a lot of noise in opposition to rules and regulations.

First, let me just say that in most all the discussions I’ve been involved in relating to rules, regulations, and safety, I’ve noticed that the majority of people that are in opposition to implementing or enforcing rules and regulations are usually the ones that stand to lose the most, or will be most affected by them. Having said that, I know of a situation, that could have been avoided, that jeopardized a community of pilots, and their ability to fly their sites in the future. Up in the Bay area some base jumpers showed up and decided to have a little illegal fun. It didn’t turn out very well, and soon after the police got involved. Following that the area was shut down to all types of flying. It took a lot of effort from a lot of people to smooth out what took just a few careless moments for a couple of very inconsiderate people to cause. A lot of people were very upset at these individuals for not considering how their actions would affect others. One of those individuals was your own Gary Begley. A couple of my good flying friends live up there and I heard this directly from them. I called them before I posted this just to get my facts straight. Neither one of them wanted to post on your forum, but I have less tolerance than they do when it comes to inconsiderate people. Since that time I’ve heard a few other things about Gary and his jumping antics that don’t surprise me, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were other pilot communities out there that have been inconvenienced by Gary’s selfish motives as well.

I’m sorry my first post on your forum had to be of this nature, but seeing posts by Gary proposing more of a hands-off policy when it comes to rules, regulations, and safety really struck a nerve. No doubt Gary would like to see less rules, it would fit perfectly into his program; how self-serving. Its one thing if a pilot unknowingly breaks some rules, it’s another thing altogether when a person knowingly breaks the rules without regarding the consequences to others; that’s unbelievably selfish. I think we all would like a world with fewer rules. Unfortunately, if you want to preserve your flying sites, I truly believe rules and regulations are necessary. Not only that, from time to time those rules need to be maintained.

Just thought you might want to consider this before you put too much stock in Gary’s proposals. Again, I apologize for introducing myself in this way. I’m looking forward to flying in Santa Barbara and meeting some of you soon.

Andre
20 year pilot P4/H4
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Chris G » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:26 pm

Easy guys. I hate having to get into the middle of this but when posts start popping up with no other purpose than to tear people down based on 2nd hand information, I'm going to start moderating. Anyone want to second the motion?

It's been frustrating watching the last few weeks on the discussion board and for the most part I've been trying to stay out of it. I've seen passive aggressive attacks, mean spirited sarcasm, intolerance, impatience, and accusations. This isn't the way things used to be in SB. What happened?!
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Joel DJ » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:52 pm

I'd blame it on Obama... he was supposed to fix everything. And this crappy weather has led to way too much free time in front of the computer.
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Re: brainstorming rules and regs

Postby Bo Criss » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:16 pm

Pretty cool brochure for the flight park in Salt Lake City. Could be good to put one together for our flying site(s):

http://static.stateparks.utah.gov/docs/ ... ochure.pdf
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