airplanes and sailboats

[gary begley]

Chuck Norris has already been to Mars; that's why there are no signs of life there

[Simon]

Thank you, Gary, for letting people know about my exploits.

There is no question about a sailboat having a keel, that is a big difference when it is compared to paragliding, though a sailboat also has a vertical wing. Sailboats work in a two dimensional field, paragliders have a third dimension. Every time I tell someone I fly a paraglider, the next time i see that person they ask me "How is the parasailing?" and Chuck Norris wants to give a swift round house kick to the head. The rate at which you swim upstream will be affected by the current, what if you are sailing upstream? The current will be pushing on your keel and the wind will be pushing on your sail, can both of these things work together to move upstream? Getting to the LZ is what matters most in paragliding, the flight path taken is determined by the reaction of the pilot to the relative wind. The better the pilot, the more capable they are at getting from one point to the other or at going big distances. But what do I know? I am just a small business owner that has to make a lot of little decisions and hope for big results.

[Simon]

I like that Chris is taking my ideas on head first. Feel free to discredit me, I am a bored P2 pilot who wants to see some action. I will happily buy Andy, Parma Chris, and Chris G a beer anytime, does anybody else want some beer?

[gary begley]

Chuck Norris tells Simon what to do.

[Dave Baldwin]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Ben H]

Ben probably uses the same inputs to do inverted snap rolls.

Close, check this out: http://www.flyjunky.blogspot.com

If anybody needs a lesson in vectors I'd be happy to take you up.

[Simon]

For you, Dave, I will buy a pitcher of beer. Do you think i am out of line for using a crosswind approach to land? I usually approach fast at a slight angle off of directly upwind, slowly applying brakes to put the glider into a stall, kind of like how i used to land the Cessna 150 i rented at SZP.

[Dave Baldwin]

zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Simon]

Even though i am a new paraglider pilot and my thought may only be a theory, the theory i have proposed involves flying and sailing, of which a paraglider is a mixture of both. I am not here to beat a dead horse, I have not completely ruled out what i have initially, with difficulty, have proposed. When an airplane does a forward slip, it is a waste of forward kinetic energy, and is a means to apply an air brake as to land an airplane (full flaps come in handy, but Ben H does not have the luxury on a Citabria, which is also a taildragger). The side slip is how you keep an airplane pointed in the right direction when you are landing on a runway that is not facing directly into the wind. My landing technique roughly involves my body being facing into the wind while my glider is pointed slightly in the direction of which i am applying slightly more break pressure. Side slipping (/sailing upwind), here is where i am having difficulty explaining in terms of paragliding, is flying into the wind in any direction other than directly opposite the direction of the wind itself. Whether or not this actually will work will be apparent when i start going cross country.

[Doug G]

Wow, reading through this post really makes me appreciate how badly we need some flyable days....

Simon, as a paragliding pilot and instructor, and someone who sails regularly, I'm having a hard time seeing how paraglider dynamics are a combination of traditional flight and sailing, as you've proposed.

As was mentioned before, the vector addition from the combination of forces is quite different in a sailboat than in any aircraft (that I know). In sailing you have air moving above water, with part of the vessel in the air, and part in the water. It's the combination of these forces, in these dissimilar fluids, that allows us to sail upwind, with our most efficient point of sail at some angle off the wind. I don't see anything similar to this environment when we're flying.

I'm with the others on this one..If I want to head upwind, assuming the airmass is uniform (not in a localized compression zone, sinking air, etc), I simply point that way. Crabbing is great if I want to go someplace other than directly upwind. Landing directly into the wind is a good idea too

Having said all that, I think theory is pretty limiting without physical examples...how bout this, let's all go sailing one afternoon after flying, and then finish the day off with those beers??

Cheers,

Doug

[DBLD]

Comparing airplanes to sailboats and then drawing a conclusion to paragliding is like comparing apples to oranges and then drawing a conlusion about pine trees. Sailing into the wind is a very complex two dimensional process that was only made possible by the Marconi Rig. This involves at least two sails working together along with the deep keel that Southside alluded to. Sailboats cannot be sailed directly into the wind.The closer you point into the wind you will come to a point that the sails will luff and the boat will stall, usually with less tan desirable results. As far as I know there are no paragliders with two seperate and independantly controlled sails plus a deep keel. GA aircraft have three axis control plus ailerons and a power source. Hang gliders even though they can make a slipping turn are yet another breed of cat. Landing any aircraft into the wind is the recomened approach. The only thing common to sailboats, airplanes, and paragliders are vector forces. In all three they are very different and controlled very differently As far as I can tell by your description of "sailing" upwind into a landing you are succesfully landing crosswind. Still just a matter of vectors

DD

[Don F]

Wow, reading through this post really makes me appreciate how badly we need some flyable days....

I wish I could use this as an excuse for my uppity (now deleted) post. It seems that running two businesses and working 7 days/wk for the past 4 months has given me an acute case of F.I.M.S. or Foot In Mouth Syndrome. Not to be confused with Hoof and Mouth Disease which you get from eating tainted British meat. Luckily, my "physician" (read psychiatrist) tells me that it is easily cured with a large piece of humble pie (this post) and a tall glass of Shut the F*#K up. If it works it could be a good long time before you hear from me again. So here goes, bottoms up.

Don

P.S. For those who desire to be your own boss, be careful what you wish for. Keep the flight reports coming, as I am forced to live vicarously through your postings at this time. I do see a little light at the end of the tunnel, I just hope it is not a train coming my way. I feel all tingly now, I think the remedy has started worki

[Dean S]

DBLD wrote:
Comparing airplanes to sailboats and then drawing a conclusion to paragliding is like comparing apples to oranges and then drawing a conlusion about pine trees

My conclusion: Pineapples!

I agree with Doug. We need to fly very soon before we run out of space on this board. Tomorrow, even though there may be a little East component, may be the cure for the common discussion board blues...

[Leeside]

Simon- if you can make your glider face a different direction than your body (side-slip) I think you deserve your P6 sign off. Also when was the last time you saw a bird land in any other direction than straight into the wind. Maybe the birds should be watching you! On another note: Parma- 10am tomorrow...... Yeah boy!

[Simon]

May this post may be an example of nothing else other than the fact that we need to all fly more and type less. I am going to go ahead and return to calling myself Tom Truax Jr. until all of you can come up with a better name for me.

if you can make your glider face a different direction than your body (side-slip) I think you deserve your P6 sign off.

Prepare to be amazed.